Hard Disk Monitoring

Hello.

I have 6 hard drives in RAID5 and HDS properly identify them. I set it to show temperature for each hard drive in tray, and I'd like them show in sequence of the tray each of them in, however some icons are combined, meaning if I drag one icon around tray, it moves 2 or sometimes 3 icons with it, like they are in a cluster. Also, I don't know exactly how Windows is treating tray icons, probably they must have some unique ID of some sort, but it seems time to time some of the HDS icons disappears, because they are being removed from "always show" list and put back into hidden list, like icon ID changes.

Is this something could be addressed in future releases?

Thanks.

Thanks for your message and excuse me for the troubles.
However, I'm afraid it is more related to Windows than Hard Disk Sentinel.

The problem is that from the viewpoint of the software, there is no way to control how / where the icons are displayed.

Hard Disk Sentinel can only show / hide / modify the tray icons it displays (the hard disk temperature icons) but can't control where / how / what order these should be diplayed.

Hard Disk Sentinel designed to always maintain all of its icons together. So it always show / hide all icons together, exactly to keep them together and to be displayed in the proper order.
This worked perfectly on older OSes, for example Win2000/XP, where the icons are always together.

But since Vista, Windows displays the icons without a real logic. Yes, it allows you to one-by-one hide and re-arrange the icons, but without real logic.
Exactly as you wrote yes, sometimes the icon state changes (even if configured), sometimes Windows remembers the state/order.

Until now, had no solution for this, but I always research about the possibilities and I can confirm that if I'll have good/better ways to control display, order, behaviour of the tray icons in general - I can confirm it will be surely added in a future version.

hdsentinel wrote:Hard Disk Sentinel designed to always maintain all of its icons together. So it always show / hide all icons together, exactly to keep them together and to be displayed in the proper order.
This worked perfectly on older OSes, for example Win2000/XP, where the icons are always together.

Do you think this would explain why some of the icons we can't move individually? HDS groups them, but OS splits them apart?
If that's the case, perhaps for Vista+ OS they should not be grouped at all, and let us deal with the order?

Now that I'm thinking about it, I have a theory why icons disappear.
I believe it only occur when new drive added, since it's a new drive and new icon, Windows hides it by default, but because HDS groups some of the icons together, it add already existing icon(s) in a group with the new one and that's when they disappear. If that's true, fixing grouping issue would automatically fix the random disappearing

P.S.
Just so you know, Aida64 (System information program) can show a lot of information as tray icons, and none of them suffer the same issues.

> Do you think this would explain why some of the icons we can't move individually?

No. The icons should be moved individually of course.

> HDS groups them, but OS splits them apart?

HDS does NOT group them - as it is not possible to group them in any ways: this is the problem.
When I wrote Hard Disk Sentinel manages them together, I mean Hard Disk Sentinel hide and show all temperature icons at the same time, exactly to let Windows display them next to each other, without inserting the icon(s) of any other application(s) between the temperature icons - plus keep them in correct order (following the order of the hard disk drives).

> If that's the case, perhaps for Vista+ OS they should not be grouped at all, and let us deal with the order?

I can confirm that there is absolutely no grouping. All icons are owned and managed by the same application - but this affects all icons related to that application, so all of its icons should work similarly.

> I believe it only occur when new drive added, since it's a new drive and new icon,
> Windows hides it by default, but because HDS groups some of the icons together,
> it add already existing icon(s) in a group with the new one and that's when they disappear.

Not really.
When a new hard disk inserted (or a disk removed) Hard Disk Sentinel itself hides all of the displayed temperature icons and then re-display them again (now both the icons related to the original and the newly inserted hard disk drive).
This is designed exactly to keep the icons together: to make sure that the order of the icons are correct - and no other icon of an other application should be displayed between the temperature icons.

If you have access to XP, you can quickly check this and verify how this works correctly.

When Vista+ released with new user features which allow control about how the icons are displayed, I expected some functions we can use in development exactly to control, manage (and maybe group / sort) the icons. But no such new functions are available.


> If that's true, fixing grouping issue would automatically fix the random disappearing

There is no grouping at all.

The only change could be to do NOT hide all icons and show them again, just show the change, for example display a new icon related to the newly inserted hard disk.
But this would exactly cause the situation I wanted to avoid: then the new icon would be displayed first (so the temperature of the last drive would shown as the leftmost icon) and also many other icons of other applications could be between the temperature icons.
I suspect this is absolutely not preferred.


> Just so you know, Aida64 (System information program) can show a lot of information as tray
> icons, and none of them suffer the same issues.

As you can see, there are no problems with many temperature icons of Hard Disk Sentinel until a configuration change occurs.
As I suspect, it is not really possible to add/remove a hardware sensor (which may affect the tray icons of Aida64).

hdsentinel wrote:The only change could be to do NOT hide all icons and show them again, just show the change, for example display a new icon related to the newly inserted hard disk.
But this would exactly cause the situation I wanted to avoid: then the new icon would be displayed first (so the temperature of the last drive would shown as the leftmost icon) and also many other icons of other applications could be between the temperature icons.
I suspect this is absolutely not preferred.

Well, since the current implementation doesn't work and I dare to say "at all" - the order of icons is not maintained correctly and cannot be changed by user, perhaps it would be a good opportunity to change that and let users control what and where they want the icons to be shown? Even as a hidden option, like registry change...

Obviously I can't talk for everyone, but personally I don't expect new icons to be visible by default, however the order of the icons is crucial.

Thanks for taking time respond with such details. Really appreciate it!

> Well, since the current implementation doesn't work and I dare to say "at all"

Sorry, I do not really understand what do you mean "at all"...

> the order of icons is not maintained correctly

Yes, this is a bug of newer Windows: even if the icons should be displayed next to each other, in correct order, they should appear that way.
But they do not.

> and cannot be changed by user,

Sorry, I do not understand. Why?
This is the new "feature" of Windows: you can any time drag and move the icons to any position.
This is true for any icon of any software - including the icons of Hard Disk Sentinel-

> perhaps it would be a good opportunity to change that and let users control what and where they want the icons to be shown?

I'd more than happy to have a such option in Windows: where we can control that the icons of the same application should be shown properly.

> Obviously I can't talk for everyone, but personally I don't expect new icons to be visible by default,

Personally I'd expect new icons to be also displayed of course. If they would be not displayed, this may also cause confusion

> however the order of the icons is crucial.

I 100% agree - this is why they designed to be displayed in correct order.

> Thanks for taking time respond with such details. Really appreciate it!

Me thanks too, I'm glad if I could help and describe the situation.

I'll keep researching and if there can be any BETTER option/solution, I can confirm it will be surely added.
Maybe for testing, it is possible to add option / registry setting which will change the behaviour, for example to prevent hiding / showing icons again.
At least then we can see how this solution works, collect experiences and this may help to find what is the best.

Ok, let's recap of what we have:

1. HDS is attempting to show all icons in proper order, but the icons ended up jumbled up in random order anyway. It save to say automated order doesn't work at all.
2. user cannot re-order the icons manually to 100% of their satisfaction, because the icons are grouped and in some cases moving 1 icon moves 2 or more icons. Obviously icons in such groups cannot be rearranged at all. Again it save to say manual order doesn't work to 100% either

You see it as a bug in Windows itself, I see it as a wrong implementation for current system.
If it works in previous OS, but doesn't work in current, then the whole concept needs to be adapted/updated/changed. Even if it means sacrificing the automation in this case.

I understand, that you are trying to avoid show other icons between HDS icons, but IMO it would minor inconvenience if we, the users, could rearrange them the way we want, even if initially they shown scattered within the list.


P.S.

> Obviously I can't talk for everyone, but personally I don't expect new icons to be visible by default,

Personally I'd expect new icons to be also displayed of course. If they would be not displayed, this may also cause confusion

By default Windows hides new icons and users should know that, so why would anyone expect it to be different with HDS

> automated order doesn't work at all

Yes, that's true due to a new feature (bug) of Windows Vista+

> the icons are grouped and in some cases moving 1 icon moves 2 or more icons.

Can you please write me which OS do you use?
Personally I never encountered this or similar - and no other user reported anything similar.
As I checked, all icons could be moved independently from each other, they can moved in any order and only one icon moved at any given time.

> Obviously icons in such groups cannot be rearranged at all.

As I tried to explain, Hard Disk Sentinel does not group icons in any ways.

> If it works in previous OS, but doesn't work in current, then the whole concept needs to
> be adapted/updated/changed. Even if it means sacrificing the automation in this case.

I 100% agree. Just modification (or even complete concept change) may not give better results at: the icons will be displayed by Windows in random order - and users would need to manually re-order (or enable them to show new icons).

> Personally I don't expect new icons to be visible by default,

Personally I do: when I insert a new hard disk, I'd expect to be detected and displayed
And I'm sure I'm not the only one who may want to see the newly inserted device too.


Please write me which OS do you use, Or you may use Report menu -> Send test report to developer option, as it can also help to check the actual situation.
I'll try to reproduce the "grouping". You wrote you have 6 drives - now I'm trying to move icons in a similar configuration and I can always move one icon, never saw problems with that.

I can 100% confirm that if I'd see any problem, this would be changed of course. If there would be any modification / concept chage, I'd do of course.
So if I'd see a problem with grouping - I could check what may cause that and how to avoid it.

Also I can confirm that at least for a test, I'll change: so there will be no automatic "hide all / show all" upon device insertion / removal: let's see if there will be any difference.

There you go:
https://youtu.be/Gsm3WcPjHhg

Using Windows 7 Ultimate x64 and Windows 10 Pro x64

Can reproduce on each OS.

Computers have over 8 hard drives in each.

Thanks!

Looks really interesting. Just tried on Win10x64 (previouly on Win7x64) with 5 and 6 drives and I see no such on any of these: all icons could be moved/positioned individually.

I'll check with more drives (more icons) just to see if it matters and also try some other tests (for example having more icons from other applications in general, as maybe the total number of icons displayed by all software can affect how Windows shows the icons).

I just tried on fresh W10 in VMware virtual pc with 6 virtual drives, every single icon was in one single group.
Disabled all icons, but left 2 and they still were in a group. I guess it's safe to say, that total number of icons has no affect.

I've tested on activity icons and temp icons (although temp is not supported, default icon still shows)

I also tried on clean Win7x64 and Win10x64 with 7-7 drives. All icons can be rearranged, moved independently.

So I have no idea why they are working differently on your systems - but would be good to know, as generally this grouping would be exactly what I wanted to achieve: to keep icons together and in correct order.

hdsentinel wrote:generally this grouping would be exactly what I wanted to achieve: to keep icons together and in correct order.

I hope that was simply poor choice of words and you do realize that "grouping" is a horrible idea to begin with (but I think you meant group as in not being scattered) ...
Anyhow HDS can't possibly guaranty that the drives order it see is the same order the drives physically connected, or how user wants to see that order. IMO there is no such thing as "correct order by default", unless user change it manually.
For example my system drive is connected to port 2, but in bios it set to be drive 1 in boot order, yet Windows shows it as drive 4. And then there are SCSI cards...

I can confirm that currently Hard Disk Sentinel performs no grouping at all. To be honest, I have no idea why SOME of its icons are grouped, what caused that, as I could not see/reproduce similar.

I just wanted to mean that yes, the original idea is to keep the icons together (next to each other, without having icons of other applications between them) and in correct order.

If grouping (if it's possible) could help in this field, I do not really see why it would be a horrible idea.

> Anyhow HDS can't possibly guaranty that the drives order it see is the
> same order the drives physically connected, or how user wants to see that order.

If Windows do not place them in correct order then yes, there is no guarantee that the icons are placed next to each other and in correct order.
This is my problem too

> For example my system drive is connected to port 2, but in bios it set to be drive 1 in boot order,
> yet Windows shows it as drive 4. And then there are SCSI cards...

Yes, that's 100% true.
But the idea is to follow the order of drives as detected by Windows, as the drives are listed in Windows Disk Management.
This may help to properly identify a disk with problem and/or just high temperature (if the icon suggests that).

Do you think you could release a test version without this failed attempt of "always maintain all of it's icons together"? Just simple, blunt, add tray icons to the system and let os/user deal with them, no any fancy manipulations on HDS part.

This is so frustrating that after reboot not only order of icons changes, but also the groups of the icons changes as well.

Thanks.

Yes, this is planned - just it requires long time due to some changes, modifications already planned.

This would require complete different tray icon management, so generally rewrite how / when the icons need to be displayed.
I want to make it - at least for a try and then may keep as optional or revert to original, current form - just as some things already scheduled (some for months) it will be possible after those. I hope in the autumn it will be possible.

I'm having the same issue too.
I have a bunch of icons in the tray, and I noticed HDS ones sometime change place.
For example I usually put them like this: C, D, E; but I find them moved like D, C, E, and somethime a couple of them insist being not separated.
I't strange.
Also, I keep the external drive icons separated from them, but sometimes they show up in the middle of them; also they stick to one of the internal sometime.
If this get fixed I'll be happy for sure.

I'd be happy too

Just as I tried to explain above, the issue is completely independent from Hard Disk Sentinel, but related to the way how Windows displays the icons.

From Hard Disk Sentinel, we have no control about how / what particular order the tray icons displayed. From the software we can only: hide and show the icons. Can't control their order and can't control if they should be surely next to each other.
We can just show many icons in the correct order - and hope that they will appear in the correct order and next to each other.

Hard Disk Sentinel always maintains the tray icons together, exactly as it is designed to keep the icons next to each other and in correct order.
This works perfectly under older OSes (eg. Win2000, XP, 2003) - but since Vista, newer Windows OSes may display the icons in different order or may place the icon of other application between Hard Disk Sentinel icons.

Until now, I found no solution for this - as Windows offers no ways to specify order of the tray icons.
Still researching about the possibilities and trying different ways to display icons differently, for example without hiding / showing all of the tray icons when a new device inserted or device disconnected (as discussed above).
I suspect this will not help, but will make things even worse: with that, the icons will be surely placed in random order and many other application icons will be displayed between the icons - but may worth a test.

What about ONLY showing/hiding/updating the icons, WITHOUT any kind of order, letting the OS take care of it?
I mean, if HDS has no means of actual control over the order of the icons, shouldn't we try to see how the OS performs (without "interference")?
I suppose the OS is able to distinguish between taskbar icons from the same program, probably based on the order they "appear" (I mean when they appear).
So, if HDS just shows them one at time always in the same order, the OS shuld take care of the ordering?
And since for HDS 1 HDD = 1 icon already, I suppose it shouldn't be difficult / time consuming to try this.
Well, I'm not asking you to do it during summer vacations, just saying that it may be worth a try.

Yes, as I wrote:

> Yes, this is planned - just it requires long time due to some changes, modifications already planned.

Just I suspect it will not help but making things even worse (tried to describe in the previous message).